MBW’s World’s Greatest Managers series profiles the best artist managers in the global business. Here, we meet Dan Petel, founder of songwriter-producer management company This Is Noise, whose clients include the likes of Ian Kirkpatrick (Sabrina Carpenter & Dua Lipa), Benson Boone co-writer Evan Blair, and others. World’s Greatest Managers is supported by Centtrip, a specialist in intelligent treasury, payments and foreign exchange – created with the music industry and its needs in mind.
Dan Petel might keep a low profile, but he maintains a high reputation.
By his own admission, the founder of songwriter-producer management company This Is Noise is “one of those keep your head down and get your work done” types, usually found as far away from the limelight as possible.
So much so, that this sit down with Music Business Worldwide is his first ever in-depth interview, 20 years into his management career.
But, while Petel likes to stay in the shadows, his clients are used to finding themselves in the spotlight, particularly at the moment.
IanKirkpatrick – one of the first creatives to sign up with Petel when he started TIN – co-wrote and co-produced three songs on Sabrina Carpenter’s all-conquering Short N’ Sweet album, including the monster hit singles Taste and Bed Chem, on top of his pioneering work with Dua Lipa on New Rules and Don’t Start Now.
Meanwhile, EvanBlair co-wrote and produced Benson Boone’s breakout smash, Beautiful Things, and also wrote and produced on Maren Morris’ Intermission EP.
Add in Ido Zmishlany (Perrie), Carlos De La Garza (Paramore) and others, and it all adds up to a roster that’s shaping the sound of rock and pop across the spectrum.
But then, Petel has always had a knack for securing high quality songwriters and producers the opportunities they deserve.
He started out playing in bands himself in Calabasas, Los Angeles, and still introduces himself as a “failed songwriter and producer”. Although his band were good enough to get signed, he soon realized that people more talented than him were struggling to make it, so decided to help them instead.
He set up a studio in his parents’ garage – sessions were often interrupted by Petel’s mother coming in to do the laundry – to work with local bands, with Kirkpatrick one of the first to get involved (“Even back then I was like, ‘This kid is amazing’,” says Petel. “He was 18 or 19 years old and I was like, ‘I need to manage him and make sure he gets the right projects’.”)
Petel got in early on the songwriter-producer management game, introducing a more proactive approach, and giving TIN a head start on what is now a hugely competitive sector.
“As a manager, I’m one tenth accountant, one tenth psychologist, one tenth assistant… I’m all these different things to clients and my goal is, get to a place where my clients only have to worry about their creative.”
And, over the years, This Is Noise clients have not just had success, they’ve been the people behind a string of career-defining hits for artists including Nick Jonas (Jealous, co-written by Simon Wilcox), Walk The Moon (Shut Up And Dance, co-written with Captain Cuts), Dove Cameron (Boyfriend, co-written and produced by Blair) and Ava Max (Sweet But Psycho, co-written with Cook Classics), to name but a few.
TIN also has a publishing joint venture with Universal Music Publishing, with clients including Mike Wise, LIIV and DCF.
And, with his clients already working on a huge range of top-secret forthcoming projects, it’s time, finally, to test Petel’s mettle as he settles down in his LA office to talk AI, master points for songwriters and the importance of being your clients’ biggest fan…
TWENTY YEARS AGO, NOT MANY PRODUCERS OR SONGWRITERS HAD MANAGERS. HOW DID YOU MAKE A SUCCESS OF IT?
Now there are so many boutique publishers and producer-songwriter management companies but, at the time, there were only a couple of big ones.
Their approach was very reactive – somebody would call and say, ‘Hey, we’ve got 200 grand, we need to make a record in November, who do you have available?’ They would hand over a list of who was around and that’s how the business was done.
I kicked off this active form of management of, ‘Let’s find an artist and develop them’, or go to a record label and say, ‘Hey, give us the smallest artist that you have no idea what to do with, let’s make a record and, if you don’t like it, don’t pay for it’. It was a much more renegade approach to producer-songwriter management.
NOW, HOWEVER, EVERYBODY’S AT IT…
Yeah, the balance has shifted. A lot of clients are doing more admin-based publishing where they’re expecting the publisher to collect and do sync and not do so much creative. The majority of the creative A&R work that a publisher would do, we’re now doing as the management company.
I joke about this with my clients. Simon [Wilcox] is on her fourth publishing deal since we’ve worked together, some of our other clients are three, four deals deep and I look at it like, publishers rent your client for three orfour years, or however long the term is. They’re renting the car, but I’m the ‘owner’ and shepherding the client long term.
“The majority of the creative A&R work that a publisher would do, we’re now doing as the management company.”
We’re doing everything publishers do, with the exception of sync and admin. We’re pitching songs – often we’re the ones driving that.
If you walk in at any major publisher, the ratio is 80 songwriters to one A&R; how do they even listen to everything? How are they remotely wrapping their heads around it?
They’re not, they’re really focused on top tier writers that are writing the hits and everybody else is fending for themselves until they generate enough of a story and get enough momentum for the publisher to come in. [Major] publishers now are really great at taking something from 80 to 100, but they’re absolutely horrible at taking someone from 0 to 80.
WHAT’S THE KEY TO A SUCCESSFUL MANAGER-CLIENT RELATIONSHIP?
As a manager, you have to be somebody’s biggest fan. To this very day, if I’m sitting in a meeting and Ian [Kirkpatrick] (pictured inset) texts me a song that he wrote yesterday, I can’t wait to listen to it.
Publishers have the advantage of structuring deals to be able to sign somebody. Like, if Warner Chappell and Universal are going after the same songwriter, Universal is going to write out a million-dollar check and Warner Chappell will write one for a million-and-a-half. And 99% of the time, the creative is going to sign with the company giving them the better terms.
But, as managers, we’re all getting the same commission and the same percentage. So, in order to sign somebody, it becomes so much more competitive.
“We’re all getting the same commission and the same percentage. So, in order to sign somebody, it becomes so much more competitive.”
It’s really about, can you provide a team and a backbone for somebody’s career. Can you, in a couple of meetings, gain their trust in a way where they say, ‘Hey, when it goes really bad, Dan and his company have my back. And, when things are going great, they know the next moves to make’. It’s a lot more competitive because I can’t write a bigger check, I just have to be a better manager than everyone else.
WHAT’S DIFFERENT ABOUT YOUR APPROACH?
My approach from day one has really been about how we can actively grow somebody’s business.
I have a couple of clients who’ve taken off maternity or paternity leave and a lot of other management teams would go, ‘OK, they’re taking three months off, there’s nothing we could be doing for them’. And for me, it’s the opposite – let’s dig into their catalogue, let’s go through that Dropbox folder that has all the unplaced records, let’s figure out if we can build momentum while they’re off so, by the time they come back, there are tons of cuts happening.
“My approach from day one has really been about how we can actively grow somebody’s business.”
I get very restless in terms of thinking about my clients’ careers, and I think that’s why we keep me around. Most of them have been with me for a decade plus – Ian [Kirkpatrick] for 20 years, Simon [Wilcox] for 15, Carlos [De La Garza] for 15.
I don’t see the point in picking up people that just do an EDM drop really well and then that goes out of style. I focus on picking up career songwriter-producers, where it doesn’t matter what music sounds like, they get how to write catchy music, whether that’s EDM or this wave of country music that’s happening now.
They can go into any room and, if you look at my client’s discographies, it shows how versatile they are.
A LOT OF YOUR CLIENTS ARE HAVING A BIG MOMENT RIGHT NOW. HOW DO YOU CAPITALISE ON THAT?
With most of my clients, we’ve started at zero. Very rarely as a company have we picked up a producer-songwriter after they’ve had mainstream success; we’ve done our best starting off with somebody when they’re essentially a kid with a guitar and want to be a big producer.
I look at people’s careers in two phases. Career version 1.0: nobody knows who you are, you’re trying to let everybody know you’re talented, you’re trying to make sure the calendar’s booked and they can afford to pay their bills. And then hopefully you have this moment of big success and move into Career 2.0.
“With most of my clients, we’ve started at zero. Very rarely as a company have we picked up a producer-songwriter after they’ve had mainstream success.”
Now, if you say yes to everybody who calls, you’ll be busy for the next five years. So it’s much more strategic, much more about what record somebody really wants to work on, what makes more sense for their strengths.
There’s only so much time when Ian [Kirkpatrick] has to juggle working on Selena [Gomez], Dua [Lipa] and Sabrina [Carpenter] and he can’t say yes to everybody all at once. So how do you prioritize? Those are all amazing, incredible artists.
So, the biggest thing is focusing on clients and really delving deep into each project; who are the teams behind it, what’s the momentum like, is this really worth your time compared to this. And if you get to a place where everything is worth your time, that’s where it gets truly both exciting and scary when it comes to decision making!
PRESUMABLY YOU’RE GETTING A LOT OF CALLS FROM PEOPLE RIGHT NOW WHO NEED A HIT?
Yeah, but when you look at the producers and projects that are having success right now, you really have to tap into: does your client have a vision for this project?
Can they not only write a big song, but help develop a vibe and a landscape for this artist that goes beyond a one or two-day co-write?
I obviously don’t manage Dan Nigro, but I have so much respect for a producer who, with Olivia Rodrigo, just had this vision of a direction so it was like, ‘Here’s where we’re going to take you and build up this landscape’.
I had this moment with our first big hit, Nick Jonas’ Jealous, which Simon Wilcox co-wrote, when an A&R I knew really well said, ‘Congrats, enjoy this moment’. And we’ve had this steady stream of success across those 10 years.
But what I’m most proud of is, a lot of these hits are artist-defining songs. Shut Up And Dance was a massive hit for an indie-alt band that brought them into the mainstream. When we first started working with Dua Lipa on New Rules, most people couldn’t pronounce her name and she’s now a global superstar. Even Sabrina Carpenter, we first worked with her when she was on Hollywood Records.
Part of what’s separated my clients and my companies is, we get in with artists early, because there’s something so different about the connection producers and songwriters have with an artist when they’ve had their first artist-defining hit together.
SO WHAT DO YOU LOOK FOR IN A NEW CLIENT?
First and foremost, you have to get along. I know it sounds cheesy, but you really have to be on the same wavelength. You have to approach decision making in a similar way or, if not that, at least be able to discuss it in a way where you’re on the same team.
If I’m getting a call from them at 2am, do I want to pick up because I really care and I get along with them? I’ve had moments with some of my clients where, even when the sky is falling and there’s so much bad stuff happening, we can still be like, ‘Hey, everything’s going to be OK’ and have a laugh about it, because it’s music. Nobody’s dying on the operating table here, everything’s going to be fine.
HOW OFTEN DO YOUR CLIENTS CALL YOU AT 2AM THEN?
My clients and I have the kind of relationship where they rarely cry wolf, so I know when they are calling me at 2am, it is over something really important. It’s more rare these days, but it still occasionally happens.
As a manager, I’m one tenth accountant, one tenth psychologist, one tenth assistant… I’m all these different things to clients and my goal is, get to a place where my clients only have to worry about their creative.
If they only have to worry about going into the studio and writing and producing great music, and know that everything else is taken care of, so they can just make the best music possible, then I’ve succeeded as a manager.
DO SONGWRITERS AND PRODUCERS HAVE TO HAVE BIG HITS TO BE SUCCESSFUL?
It’s an interesting question. Carlos De La Garza will maybe never have a pop hit, but that’s not what defines success for him. He’s coming off a rock album Grammy win with Paramore, his daughters are in a band called The Linda Lindas who were on the Green Day tour playing stadiums, he’s been producing, mixing and winning Grammys for 20 years and I don’t see it slowing down any time soon. His career is very successful having no ‘hits’.
But if you’re a songwriter-producer who is focused not on working across entire albums but playing the more 9-5 pop game, your career is defined by the hits. Your momentum is influenced by your most recent hits.
“if you’re a songwriter-producer who is focused not on working across entire albums but playing the more 9-5 pop game, your career is defined by the hits. Your momentum is influenced by your most recent hits.”
What’s crazy is, with the over-consumption of music and abundance of content, the windows for some of these pop hits are decreasing. It’s crazy how much content’s coming out and how much quicker songs are grabbing people’s attention and then dying out completely, a month later.
If you’re purely a songwriter and not a producer, it’s becoming increasingly tough to make a good living without having radio-driven hits. I can’t tell you how many writers I’ve spoken to, especially during the COVID pandemic, that are just not able to afford rent.
It’s becoming more common for songwriters to ask for fees and points on the masters’ side because you can have a meaningful streaming song, that is maybe not a radio-driven hit, and the amount of money the songwriter receives is crazy low, it’s embarrassing.
ARE YOU MANAGING TO GET MASTER POINTS FOR YOUR WRITERS?
We’ve had success getting that in two scenarios. One, when a songwriter is really deeply involved on a project; it’s not a one or two-day co-write, they dig in and are involved across the entire record.
And we have more luck when it’s an outside song, when a bunch of songwriters go in, create a song, multiple artists want to cut that song and there’s some leverage that we have in terms of choosing a home.
But I’ll always push for that to not be the determining factor; ultimately, it’s about the right home for this song, which artist sounds great and which team is really going to work it.
It’s funny. There was a moment when I first started in music, before streaming, when songs would come out, sell a lot the first week and then have this big drop off, and master points meant almost nothing.
“There just needs to be some sort of mechanism of equality for songwriters.”
I can recall conversations with a major label where I said, ‘This is a really low fee, I need to get a couple of thousand dollars more for my producer’ and they said, ‘We can’t do that, but we’ll give them seven points’. They were practically giving the points away because they were meaningless, no song was recouping anything.
There are certainly a lot of positives that have come from streaming. If you look at the recorded side of music, it’s become bigger and bigger since the introduction of streaming. And for producers, the business is actually booming. You not only have all the work that’s coming in from labels, but now with TikTok, you have independent artists with massive followings that are self-funding things and have great budgets.
Now, there just needs to be some sort of mechanism of equality for songwriters because it really is crazy.
IS TIKTOK GOOD OR BAD FOR SONGWRITERS?
It’s a double-edged sword. Any platform that can inject music into people’s lives daily is a positive. And when you look at just how good TikTok has been a vehicle for exposing people to music, we’ve benefitted from that tremendously. A lot of our most recent hits started at TikTok.
“There is a part of me that misses the old school days when an A&R person would hear a song and say, ‘That’s a hit, we need to stand behind it and push it’.”
Where it gets scary is, has TikTok got too much power? And do labels afford it too much power? I’ve heard so many A&R people go, ‘Oh, let’s just leak a snippet of this song and if it goes viral, it will be the next single’. People have lost their conviction.
There is a part of me that misses the old school days when an A&R person would hear a song and say, ‘That’s a hit, we need to stand behind it and push it’. How many massive artists [of the past] wouldn’t have gone viral on TikTok? Are we missing this generation’s Nirvana because they don’t have a catchy eight-second clip?
HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE POTENTIAL THREAT OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE?
When any new technology comes into any industry, without proper safeguards it can be very scary. When it comes to AI, a lot of people don’t know the extent of its power and that scares a lot of people.
I’ve certainly had my moments of staying up late at night going, ‘OK, our industry is done, computers are going to be writing music forever’. But, at the same time, I remember when tools like Auto-Tune came out and how mediocre singers could sound really good.
“AI, if managed properly as a creative tool, can be beneficial and I don’t see an issue with that.”
Are there a couple of artists that have had hits that probably have no business singing? Yes, sure. But does that mean there aren’t amazing, incredible voices having huge success in music? No.
AI, if managed properly as a creative tool, can be beneficial and I don’t see an issue with that. However, if given carte blanche to use AI for anything and everything, we’re potentially in for a generational shift in our industry.
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